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Re: Little Lotte meaning |
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No, Lotte is a name in it's own right over here so it never really struck me.
Posted on: 24 Jul 2006 9:55
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Odd, because the several posts before mine said that Lotte is short for Charlotte.
Posted on: 27 Jul 2006 4:31
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Check out Swedish Frollo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7kcE-6q83s EDIT: Video courtesy of youtube.com user josseG.
Posted on: 4 Aug 2006 7:19
Edited by satyriasis on 17 Sep 2006 22:29:38
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Jeg fant, jeg fant…
I found the rest of operafantomets Lille Lotte song. It’s called “The child's first grief” by Andreas Munch. And it must have been published either on or before 1855, because that’s the earliest publication of it I could find, in a book called “Læsebog: til brug for vore skolers nederste og mellemste classer” 3rd Edition: Bergen. Original: Barnets første sorg Den lille Lotte tænkte paa alt og ingen ting, en sommerfugl hun svæved’ i solene guld omkring, i sin gule lokker hun vaarens krone bar, som hendes blik var sjælen saa lyseblaa og klar. Hun kjælte for sin moder, hun var sin dukke tro, hun saa paa sin klæder og sine røde sko; men over alle elskte hun dog sin lille fugl, som fader havde fanget paa sneen sidste jul. Den sad og frøs i vinduet, i vinterkuld’ og vind, Og saa saa bønlig just i den varme stue ind. Da strø’de fader korn du og lokked’ den dermed Og tog den ind i huset til pleie og til fred. Men Lotte var lyksalig, alene hun fik lov At pleie og at passe den lille gjest fra skov. Hun bragte den sin føde, hun dyssed’ den i blund Snart lærte den at pikke af hendes røde mund. Den kjendte hendes stemme og hendes lette gang Og takked’ sin veninde med mangen lystig sang. Tilsidst da sad den traurig og stille i sit bur, Den hørte vaaren kalde fra grønne skognatur. Da slog den ud med vingen og vilde fly sin vei; Men lille Lotte smilte - ak, hun forstod den ei. Hun lukked’ buret sikkert, hun gav den vand og frø; Men fuglen vil kun frihed, hvis ikke maa den dø. En morgen løb hun tidlig til fuglen ud med mad Og jubled’ høit paa veien og var saa sjæleglad; Men, da hun kom til buret, da glemte hun sin sang, Den kjære fugl laa udstrakt paa bunden stiv og lang. Hun tog den ud forsigtig og kyssed’ den saa ømt; Men den blev kold og livløs, - det var ei blot paa skrømt, Dens hoved sank tilbage, i øiet døden laa, Da slap hun den forskrækket og stirred’ taus derpaa. Og, som hun stod der stille, hun blev saa underlig, For hendes klare øie en taage lagde sig, Den søde barndoms-rødme fra hendes kinder veg, Og langsomt op fra hjertet en dunkel smerte steg, Hun kunde ikke vide, hvad denne smerte var; Men sorg i hendes hjerte sin første rune skar Og præged’ dybt sit biled i hendes bløde træk. Nu flød den ikke mer med den sidste taare væk. Hun tænkte paa sin moder, men ei saa let som før, Og nye verd’ner dærmed’ bag sorgens sorte slør: Thi som et blik paa havet fra kystens mørke borg Saa livets udsigt aabnes ved barnets første sorg Translation (from where operafantomet left off) Could someone else try to translate this, my translating skills suck, and I'm not just saying that.: It knew her voice and her gentle walk And thanked it's friend with many a lively song. At the end it sat ? And silent in its cage It heard spring calling from green forest nature Then it spread it wings and wanted to fly away; But little Lotte smiled - alas, she understood it not. She closed the cage securely, she gave it water and seed; But the bird only wanted freedom, if not it must die. One morning she ran early to the bird with food And chaired loudly no the way and was so delighted; But, when she came to the cage, then she forgot her song. The dear bird lay outstretched on the bottom stiff and long. She toke it out carefully and kissed it so tenderly; But it became cold and lifeless, - it was not a joke, It’s head sank back, in the eye death lay, Horrified she let it fall and stared silent at it. And, at she stood there silent, she became so strange Before her clear eyes a fog grew The sweet childhood blush withdrew from her cheeks And slowly from her heart a dark pain rose. She could not know, what this pain were; But sorrow had written it’s first rune in her heart And marked it’s image deep in her soft feature Now it didn’t float anymore when the last tear disappeared She thought of her mother, but not as lightly as before, And new worlds dawned behind the black veil of grief. Like a look at the sea from the dark fortress of the cost So the possibilities of life are revealed by the child's first grief. This is how I found it. I went to Deichmansks Diktregister (Poem database) and search for “Den lille Lotte tænkte” (make sure to spell it with æ and not e). And all the information on it comes up. I went to Deichmanske to “Munch, Andreas samlede skrifter B. 1” but they couldn’t find it. So I went down to the children/young adults section. Asked for “Erichsen, Andreas Emil. Norsk læsebog . B. 3 Kra : Fabritius, 1886”, but they didn’t have that edition and finally I found the poem in ”Kobberstad, Jakob N. . Norsk læsebog Kra: Aschehoug, 1882”. It was in vol no. 2. (The page numbers behind the books refers to the page the poem is on.)
Posted on: 29 Aug 2006 10:07
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Absolutely lovely falluke elskeren. Have a big bunch of flowers for your indefatigable research work. What a sad song! Your translation does *not* suck, honestly, I think you bring across the meaning and spirit of the song. I'm going to take the liberty of making just a few small adjustments, where I think you *may* have slipped up. I don't understand the Norwegian well enough to do such a good translation, but with your translation, the original text and my knowledge of English, I think I can help out a little. See below for operafantomet's and falluke-elskeren's combined translation, my changes are in italics. I've just "picked a few nits" nothing major. Anyone who disagrees with my changes can point this out. Original: Barnets første sorg The first sorrow of the child Den lille Lotte tenkte på alt og ingenting Som en sommerfugl hun svevet i solens gull omkring I sine gule lokker hun vårens krone bar Og hennes blikk var himmelens, så lyseblått og klart som hendes blik var sjælen saa lyseblaa og klar.in the version quoted by falluke-elskeren Little Lotte though of everything and nothing Like a butterfly she flew about in the gold of the sun In her golden curls she the wore the crown of spring And her gaze was the like the heavens, so bright blue and clear Hun kjelte for sin moder og var sin dukke tro Hun så på sine kleder og sine røde sko Men over alle elsket hun dog en liten fugl Som faren hadde fanget på sneen siste jul She wheedled her mother and was true (took good care of ) her doll She looked at her clothes and her red shoes But above them all she loved a little bird Which her father had captured on the snow last Christmas Den satt og frøs ved vinduet i vinterkulde og vind Og så så bønnlig just i den varme stuen inn Da strødde faren korn ut og lokket den inn Og Lotte la den varlig imot sitt varme kinn It sat by the window, freezing, in the winter's cold and wind And pleadingly it looked into the warm room within Then her father put out grain to tempt it to come in And Lotte gently put it towards her warming cheek Og Lotte var lykksalig, alene fikk hun lov Å pleie og å passe den lille gjest fra skov Hun brakte den sin føde og kysset den i blund Snart lærte den å spise fra hennes røde munn And Lotte was so happy, she alone was allowed To care for and to comfort the little guest from the forest She brought the bird its food and kissed it to sleep Soon it learned to eat from her red mouth/lips From falluke-elskeren: Den kjendte hendes stemme og hendes lette gang Og takked’ sin veninde med mangen lystig sang. Tilsidst da sad den traurig og stille i sit bur, Den hørte vaaren kalde fra grønne skognatur. It knew her voice and her light step And thanked its friend with many a lively song. At the end it sat sad? and silent in its cage It heard spring calling from the green forest Da slog den ud med vingen og vilde fly sin vei; Men lille Lotte smilte - ak, hun forstod den ei. Hun lukked’ buret sikkert, hun gav den vand og frø; Men fuglen vil kun frihed, hvis ikke maa den dø. Then it spread it wings and wanted to fly away; But little Lotte smiled - alas, she understood it not. She closed the cage securely, she gave it water and seed; But the bird only wanted freedom, if it was not to die. En morgen løb hun tidlig til fuglen ud med mad Og jubled’ høit paa veien og var saa sjæleglad; Men, da hun kom til buret, da glemte hun sin sang, Den kjære fugl laa udstrakt paa bunden stiv og lang. One morning she ran early to the bird with food And laughed loudly on the way and was so delighted; But, when she came to the cage, then she forgot her song. The dear bird lay outstretched on the bottom stiff and long. Hun tog den ud forsigtig og kyssed’ den saa ømt; Men den blev kold og livløs, - det var ei blot paa skrømt, Dens hoved sank tilbage, i øiet døden laa, Da slap hun den forskrækket og stirred’ taus derpaa. She took it out carefully and kissed it so tenderly; But it remained cold and lifeless, - it was not a joke, Its head sank back, in the eye death lay, Horrified she let it fall and stared silently at it. Og, som hun stod der stille, hun blev saa underlig, For hendes klare øie en taage lagde sig, Den søde barndoms-rødme fra hendes kinder veg, Og langsomt op fra hjertet en dunkel smerte steg, And, at she stood there silent, she became so strange Before her clear eyes a fog grew The sweet childhood blush faded from her cheeks And slowly from her heart a dark pain rose. Hun kunde ikke vide, hvad denne smerte var; Men sorg i hendes hjerte sin første rune skar Og præged’ dybt sit biled i hendes bløde træk. Nu flød den ikke mer med den sidste taare væk. She could not know, what this pain was; But sorrow had written its first rune in her heart And marked its image deep on her soft features No longer did it disappear with her last tear Hun tænkte paa sin moder, men ei saa let som før, Og nye verd’ner dærmed’ bag sorgens sorte slør: Thi som et blik paa havet fra kystens mørke borg Saa livets udsigt aabnes ved barnets første sorg She thought of her mother, but not as lightly as before, And thus new worlds dawned behind the black veil of grief: Like a look at the sea from the dark fortress of the coast So the possibilities of life are revealed by the child's first sorrow.
Posted on: 29 Aug 2006 10:59
Edited by Jennie on 29 Aug 2006 11:13:26
Edited by Jennie on 29 Aug 2006 11:28:25 Edited by Jennie on 29 Aug 2006 11:33:44 Edited by Jennie on 29 Aug 2006 11:45:08 Edited by Jennie on 29 Aug 2006 11:49:22 |
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Re: Little Lotte meaning |
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falluke-elskeren and Jennie, this is a phenomenal find - the *original* of the Little Lotte song.
I am speechless. And the translation is very beautiful, too - "Sorrow had written its first rune in her heart." :shiver: Ladies, I think you ought to archive this somewhere else other than just this site. Because it is an original translation that you have put together (I can't imagine anyone else has even ever translated it into English) IMO you could post it on fanfiction.net (yes, there's a lot of schlock there, but it's a big archive that isn't going to go away anytime soon, most likely.) I would imagine the original is public-domain. It's a beautiful poem, and to me it "fits" so well with the Phantom story. I wonder if Leroux ever read it in translation? Or did he have a Swedish mistress who was a lot like Christine, who might have recited it for him? Or was it not an obscure poem then? Again, thanks so much especially, falluke-elskeren, for digging this out.
Posted on: 11 Sep 2006 6:33
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Re: Little Lotte meaning |
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I don't want to take any credit for this, operafantomet and falluke elskeren are the ones who've dug this out for us. I just put the two parts together in one post, and poked about at the translation a bit.
It's a fabulous find, and adds such a poignancy to my vision of Christine's girlhood. The song is about the loss of the innocence and confidence of childhood, so sad. The sorrows of the world making their entrance into the golden carefree days of childhood of the little girl who is cherished and protected by her parents. Thanks again, operafantomet and falluke elskeren. A big round of applause and bunches of flowers to you. Also, thank you for posting the sources so clearly falluke elskeren. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stefanie, that's a good point about Leroux... how *would* he be familiar with a song like that? Intriguing. It's Norwegian, did he know a Norwegian family with children who sang it? It's not the kind of thing a mistress would sing for her.... er... patron, really, is it? Unless he heard her singing it for her child, perhaps. Lots of interesting fan fic spin off ideas here, if anyone wants to write something about Leroux himself.... Has that been done yet?? In general, I wonder how familiar he was with Scandinavia and it's literature, he does mention Danish and Finnish authors in POTO, and it feels as if he's read them...
Posted on: 11 Sep 2006 10:20
Edited by Jennie on 11 Sep 2006 10:32:39
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I don't know ... people entertained themselves by sitting around the parlor piano and singing, and if the tune was beautiful and melancholy, perhaps it's something a woman *would* sing for a man. Especially if she felt things were going a little "south" in the relationship.
Posted on: 11 Sep 2006 15:09
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Sorry for the double post - but I wanted to ask falluke-elskeren about this.
I was googling Andreas Munch to see if I could find anything on possible French translations, and I came across this 1896 commentary called "Norwegian Poetry Since 1814" which mentions Munch. The writer apparently doesn't like him too much, but then mentions another one of Munch's poems that seems a bit "Phantom-y" perhaps: It was not till 1846 that he published any work of real importance, and in that year appeared "Den Eensomme" ("The Solitary"), a romance founded on the morbid but fascinating idea of a soul that, folding inward upon itself, ever increasingly shuns the fellowship of man-kind, while the agonies of isolation rack it more and more. The scene of the story is laid in modern times, and an additional horror is by that means given to an idea which, though it would hardly have presented itself to any but a sickly mind, is carried out with skill and effect. That sounds like Erik in some ways.
Posted on: 13 Sep 2006 9:25
Edited by stefanie_bean on 13 Sep 2006 9:27:24
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so the story of little lotte is real? i thought maybe gaston leroux just thought it up.... that's neat.
Posted on: 13 Sep 2006 10:36
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Excellent research, people!!
Actually, we owe it all to an elder woman who informed me about this poems/songs existance. She knew a song called "Den lille Lotte" in her childhood, but had since forgotten big chunks of it. The verses she remembered were the once I posted and translated. I've forwarded the full lyric/poem to her, along with the references of who wrote it and where she can find it. I think she will be thrilled! She was very fond of the song. I hope she'll reply in a week or so. Again, super research (and translating).
Posted on: 13 Sep 2006 14:53
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Re: Little Lotte meaning |
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Hello again, operafantomet! I think this is such a great find. How nice of you to pass it on to the lady who told you about it... Do you think there is any way you could get her to sing and record it? So that you'd get the idea of the tune?
Posted on: 13 Sep 2006 21:28
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Ladies, I think you ought to archive this somewhere else other than just this site. Because it is an original translation that you have put together (I can't imagine anyone else has even ever translated it into English) IMO you could post it on fanfiction.net (yes, there's a lot of schlock there, but it's a big archive that isn't going to go away anytime soon, most likely.) Well, it won’t be me, I’m technology challenged, but I agree with the idea. Yes, the it’s in public domain. The rule here is that when an author has been dead for 70 or more years his work is in public domain. Quote: Thanks again, operafantomet and falluke elskeren. A big round of applause and bunches of flowers to you. Also, thank you for posting the sources so clearly falluke elskeren. If you don’t mind I’ll forward those flowers to the personnel at the Deichmanske children's section, they were most helpful. Quote: Sorry for the double post - but I wanted to ask falluke-elskeren about this. I found it, but I don’t think you should trust that article as a historical sources. The author makes several mistakes. Unfortunately I have trouble reading it because it’s written in Gothic style. It’s available from Deichmanske and The National Library. It’s not a poem, but a book. It’s 101 pages long. The I character of the story is Ben, and then “Den Ensomme” of the story is Johannes. Johannes has had a really hard life, he’s lost his parents and his taken care of by some relatives that doesn’t like him. He has no friends at school, which has earned him the nickname “Eremitten”. If you want to know more I could continue reading it, but I have school now, so it will have to wait till summer. About Andreas Munch From the Norwegian wikipedia “Andreas Munch (1811-1884) var norsk skribent og forfatter. I sin samtid var Munch anerkjent som tidens mest betydningsfulle dikter - i dag er han mest kjent for diktet Brudeferden i Hardanger. Han debuterte i 1836 med diktsamlingen Ephemerer. Han er en representant for nasjonalromantikken og norsk poetisk realisme, og var den første som fikk diktergasje i Norge, i 1860. Munch mistet etterhvert betydning som dikter ettersom interessen for nasjonalromantikken dalte. Han kom til å gi ut det nasjonalromantiske dramaet hertug Skule samme år som Henrik Ibsen ga ut Kongsemnerne. Dramaet til Munch kom helt i skyggen, og han trakk seg gradvis tilbake for den yngre generasjonen. Munch var også avisskribent i Den Constitutionelle og i Norges Rigstidende, og fulgte Welhavens linje innenfor estetisk kunstbedømmelse. Han hører dermed til en høyreorientert romantisk retning, og til nasjonalromantikkens mer urbane fløy.” Translation: Andreas Munch (1811-1884) was a Norwegian writer. In his time Munch was known as the most important poet of all ages - today he is mostly remember for them poem ”Brudeferden i Hardanger” ![Open in new window](javascript:CaricaFoto("http://www.vgskole.net/grafikk/kunst/1800-tallet/tidemann_og_gude/brudeferden.jpg");) . He debuted in 1836 with the poem collection “Ephemerer”. He represents national romantic and Norwegian poetic realism, and was the first to get “diktergasje” (it means the government paid him to write full time) in Norway, in 1860. Munch after the interest for the national romantic started to fade so did Munch’s importance as a writer. He published the national romantic drama “Hertug Skule” the same year as Henrik Ibsen published “Kongsemnerne”. Munch drama was overshadowed completely, and he gradually retired to make way for the younger generation. Munch also wrote for “Den Constitutionelle” and “Norges Rigstidende” and followed Welhaven’s ethical guidelines about art critic. Thus he belongs to the right winged oriented romantics, and to the more urban of the national romantics. He’s buried at Vår Frelsers Gravlund (The Cemetary of our Saviour). You can see exactly where here: The Cemetary of Our Savior He’s no. 64. The description is pretty much the same, except that it mentions that he was the cousin of Christian Munch.
Posted on: 17 Sep 2006 9:12
Edited by falluke-elskeren on 17 Sep 2006 9:15:18
Edited by satyriasis on 17 Sep 2006 17:45:25 |
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I'm sorry, I just realized I forgot to thank Jennie for her translation help. Thank you, Jennie, your English is way better than mine. And I looked up traudig on ordbok and it does indeed mean sad.
Posted on: 17 Sep 2006 11:37
Edited by falluke-elskeren on 17 Sep 2006 11:39:33
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Yes, that's a lovely idea, do say hello and thank you very much to them. If you give them the link to this thread, we might even get them interested in the site  As for putting up the poem and its translation at fanfiction.net... I have an account there and don't mind doing that. But I don't have a "name" on the site as I haven't put up any of my own writing there. So I wonder if it would get much publicity there. Ahem *cough* Stefanie Bean *cough, cough*, that weaver of all those Phantom fan fics.... a LOT of people hang around her at fanfiction.net dot dot dot. Thank you for your kind words about my English, falluke-elskeren. I think my old English teacher would be proud if she could read this. Anyway, the most important thing here wasn't a perfect translation, but the very fact that you got hold of the original poem and so very kindly put it up for us. "Technology challenged"... is that another word for "not a great friend of computers"?
Posted on: 17 Sep 2006 12:04
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This picture summaries my relationship with computers pretty accurately: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/a/l/alexpass/ludd.jpg.html
Posted on: 17 Sep 2006 15:47
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Falluke-elskeren skrev: Following elder pronounciation rules, you ought to pronounce it with a silent D and the G more like a J, making the word "traui(j)". It is a common word in my dialect in the south of Norway. :) It can also mean something like "unfortuneate". It is "trauig" if you miss the bus or loose your wallet, for example.
Posted on: 17 Sep 2006 22:43
Edited by operafantomet on 17 Sep 2006 22:45:34
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 and And one of my favourite modern.. er..."poems" goes: I hate this damn computer I wish that they would sell it It never does what I want it to But only what I tell it. Ah well, it's nice to know that I am *not* alooooooone..
Posted on: 17 Sep 2006 22:47
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It feels quite close to the German for sad, too, "traurig". And in the South Scanian dialect we say "tradig" for something that is sad and boring.
Posted on: 17 Sep 2006 22:52
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Hmmm... but I didn't have anything to do with the composition. I'm just helping with the publicity ... ;p The way FFN works is that when you post something new, it comes up on the "Just In" page. (But not anything rated M.) When I post a new chapter, people who have added me to their 'alert' list get an e-mail. (It's not a very big list...) The way it seems to work, as I see it, is when *other people* recommend something you've posted. It depends a lot on word of mouth. Also, FFN has what are called C2s - "communities." People can put together story collections. I have one called "Stranger Than You Dreamt It" (unusual stuff that I cherrypick out of FFN's POTO stories) and I would definitely add the Little Lotte translation. I'm not sure how many people read my C2. There are also a bunch of LJ communities that you can join (very easy) and post it on. It's not necessary to limit oneself to posting in one place. A lot of people post on LJ comms *and* FFN. PM me if you want to talk more about LJ comms.
Posted on: 18 Sep 2006 3:39
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NEW FANFICTION: Kristina: A Fantasy (An E/C POTO-inspired Alternative Universe serial novel) http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4803765/1/Kristina_A_Fantasy My LJ: http://stefanie-bean.livejournal.com/ |
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Re: Little Lotte meaning |
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I know the name is from her dad's stories but i just thought this was interesting:
Lotte's meaning: fishes having large mouths with a wormlike filament attached for luring prey I find it funny that this fish is called lotte because it lures its prey by something in its big mouth. The whole luring concept just reminds me of Christine and Raoul because he was lured by her singing the first time he heard her. (or her big mouth, whichever one you prefer) Out of all the fish out there, this is the one called Lotte. haha. I love it. <3 BCJ
Posted on: 18 Sep 2006 18:57
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We sat side by side in the morning light at and looked out at our future together... Are people born... Wicked? Thanks to Crawfordness 4 the avvie! |
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Re: Little Lotte meaning |
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Archangel
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Falluke-elskeren, that's a lovely painting of a bride travelling by boat to her wedding. That poem you mentioned, have you read it? Could you tell us what it is about? I tried googling but didn't really come up with anything.
Posted on: 19 Sep 2006 7:41
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Some old stories up at:ffn.net, jennie_j Avatar by Stefanie Bean, showing us the man behind the mask |
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Re: Little Lotte meaning |
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protege
 
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Can I post that Lotte poem on my blog? I will credit operafatomet, Falluke-elskeren and Jennie. I won't publicize it because my blog is a private one but just in case one day I might unlock it, is it OK for me to post?
 ETA: And of course I will credit Andreas Munch too. 
Posted on: 19 Sep 2006 9:12
Edited by childofwilderness on 19 Sep 2006 9:14:32
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protege
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No one replied...
 I guess I'll just post with full credit to everyone involved. Thank you everyone.
Posted on: 21 Sep 2006 8:13
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Archangel
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Quote:
I didn't answer, because I felt that falluke-elskeren and operafantomet are the ones who've done most of the work and research and was waiting for them to reply. My guess is that they wouldn't mind, as long as you credit them and give the link. I certainly wouldn't... in fact, the more the information is spread the better. It's a wonderful find, and I really admire falluke-elskeren for going to all that work to find the complete poem. And if operafantomet hadn't posted about it initially, then perhaps falluke-elskeren wouldn't have searched for it. Great work, ladies.... er... people...
Posted on: 21 Sep 2006 8:54
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Some old stories up at:ffn.net, jennie_j Avatar by Stefanie Bean, showing us the man behind the mask |
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