Since LND premiered we've discussed how it's doing at the box office.

Sold out? Floundering? Plodding along nicely, thank you?

Some people have been checking statistics on Ebay, I've asked at a couple of ticket offices in London a month or so back, but I can't see a clear picture. There were a few empty seats when I saw it, others say there were no empty seats or quite a few empty seats when they were there .... I suppose it all varies with the days of the week among other things.

Some reviewers are painting a gloomy picture of bad sales etc etc.

When I asked at ticket offices in London they said it was doing well, but that all shows had seen a certain fall-off in audience figures because tourist figures were down. Also, when I tried for more tickets (ANY seats) at the Adelphi ticket office when I was there, it was sold out....

To quote Pilate "I want the truth"...

Will repeat the question I've asked elsewhere and am interested in all tips on how to find reliable information - how are ticket sales doing for LND?

Not sure if this is helpful, but in the article linked below, it says two different things:

"Yet the show is playing to packed houses and standing ovations each night at the Adelphi Theatre,
leaving the producers baffled by the online vitriol."

And later in the same article...

"Love Never Dies needs to sell £40 million worth of tickets in its first year to break even.
Currently, takings are 20 per cent below that estimate."

ARTICLE: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/cu ... g-the-Phantom-sequel.html

Thanks, Samantha's Phantom £40 million is a lot of money, I was wondering how much it cost to set up a show like this.

The rest of the article was interesting as well, gives some information about Loveshoulddie and the people behind. Am copying the entire article here, in case it's taken down from the newspaper site.

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Even before its official opening night, theatre websites were flooded with negative comments. A Facebook group was set up to denounce the "trainwreck of a show", and false rumours began spreading of its imminent demise.

Yet the show is playing to packed houses and standing ovations each night at the Adelphi Theatre, leaving the producers baffled by the online vitriol.

Now an explanation has emerged. Investigations have revealed that the negative postings are part of an orchestrated hate campaign run by a handful of obsessive Phantom fans who believe Lord Lloyd Webber should have left the original alone.

The architects of the campaign are a husband and wife, Jeff and Rebecca Timmons, who live in Canada. They are die-hard fans - or 'Phans', as they prefer to be known.

Their website, www.loveshouldie.com, has its own 1,300-member Facebook group and Twitter page, and an online shop selling anti-Love Never Dies merchandise. A link to Love Should Die has appeared on no less than 4,000 other websites, often placed in the comments section of legitimate theatre sites.

The couple spent last weekend handing out flyers outside a Phantom production in Michigan, warning about the "travesty" of the new show which opened in March.

Moreover, the Timmons have never seen Love Never Dies.

"You don't need to see Love Never Dies to feel this way. If I were to see the show, not only would I be wasting my time and my money, but it would make me so angry," said Mr Timmons, 29.

He has seen Phantom 126 times. "My life has been Phantom. My wife and I met at Phantom. We developed a relationship through Phantom. We had a Phantom-themed wedding. Rebecca dressed as Christine and I was the Phantom, but it was much more than that. We had fog and a church organ playing the title song. The wedding was hugely popular with Phans. It was a big thing to us.

"Each time we hear the words 'Love Never Dies' and the story behind it, it feels like we're getting slapped in the face by Lloyd Webber and his creative team."

Speaking from the couple's home in Toronto, Mr Timmons explained his animosity towards the sequel, which is set in Coney Island, New York.

"Why would you want to mess with perfection? The idea for this sequel is ludicrous. The Phantom moves from Paris to Coney Island? From opera to vaudeville trash? The original Phantom was upset, angry, he had temper issues - reading the script, it seems like he's now a nice, gentle man. It doesn't make sense."

Her dismissed the positive reception from audiences at the Adelphi. "It's built into the psyche of a theatre audience to give a standing ovation for anything that's big. It means nothing to me."

Mr Timmons is pictured on the Facebook site handing out flyers outside a Phantom show, wearing a Love Should Die T-shirt.

He said: "A lot of audience members were stopping me and asking, 'Is this a joke?' They didn't believe Lloyd Webber had made a sequel. When we told them, people's jaws were dropping. One girl was crying and her mum was comforting her and saying it couldn't be right."

The couple initially denied founding Love Should Die - which is administered by an anonymous character called "The Real Phantom" - saying they are only supporters. However, the website is registered to them.

Mrs Timmons, 30, said: "The intention of the Love Should Die group was never to shut down the production. Phans were simply fed up with hearing Lloyd Webber state that we 'couldn't wait for the sequel'. For a very large number of us, that simply isn't true."

Unfortunately for the producers, the campaign appears to have had some effect. Love Never Dies needs to sell £40 million worth of tickets in its first year to break even. Currently, takings are 20 per cent below that estimate. Love Should Die campaigners ultimately hope to stop the show opening on Broadway next year.

André Ptaszynski, chief executive of the Really Useful Group and the show's producer, said: "Love Never Dies has been extremely well received by the audiences with a standing ovation every evening, but its success has not been helped by the hostile internet campaign.

"Of course, we appreciate the fantastic support and loyalty that so many fans of the Phantom of the Opera have shown over the years. We would like to thank them for their contribution to the worldwide success of the original show and we'd love them to continue supporting it.

"However, we are disappointed that a group of them have become part of what appears to be an organised internet campaign in North America and Europe to smear Love Never Dies. They are creating the illusion that audiences aren't enjoying the show, yet we know that the vast majority of audiences that flock to see the show at the Adelphi love it.

"It is an unfortunate use of the internet when it is used to damage any show, especially when many of those involved do not seem to have seen the show they write about."

This is not the first time that music fans have made their presence felt on the web. In December, rap metal band Rage Against The Machine beat Simon Cowell's X Factor act to the Christmas number one as the result of a campaign on Facebook.

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Interesting to note how a handful (or couple!) of motivated people, can conduct a big campaign with limited means. And by "big campaign" I mean a campaign that reaches a large number of people. The internet can be a powerful tool for those who know how to use it.

Interesting article. Thanks for reprinting it.

All credit to Samanthas Phantom who found it, thank you S P!

I thought it just as well to copy and repost it in its entirety, so many articles disappear from the internet after a short time.

André Ptaszynski, chief executive of the Really Useful Group and the show's producer says that the success of LND hasn't been helped by the hostility against it on the internet, and feels that there's been an organized internet smear campaign against it.

I wonder how much damage internet campaigns like that can do, and how they affect people. Speaking for myself, whenever anyone is violently opposed to something and speak ill of it, I tend to want to find out more so I can form my own opinion.

In retrospect, the hype against LND was a strong contributing factor in making me go and see it, actually.

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To clarify: I didn't say that, I quoted the article in the Telegraph where it said: "The couple initially denied....etc"

Bric said:
The Timmons couple did not found the Love Should Die group. The man interviewed in the article I link here, whoever he is, founded it, but because he did not use his own name when opening the facebook site, facebook shut it down temporarily. It was thought at first that RUG had gotten it shut down, but RUG didn't do it. Best guess is that LND fans looked for a way to get rid of the LSD site and found that not registering under your own name was against facebook Terms of Service. The original founder stepped back, and ,apparently, the Timmons registered the site in their names. I don't believe they are the only ones who are part of the organizing "team"now.

INTERVIEW WITH ORIGINAL FOUNDER OF LSD

Excerpt from the interview:

New post to mark on-topic comment! There's a list of bestselling theatre tickets...

According to the seetickets site, LND is at the top of the list as number 2 after "Taste of London". Now what the heck is ToL? Never heard of it...

http://www.seetickets.com/see/top40.asp

POTO is number 5. Pooh! It should be number 1 of course....

Well, with summer vacations coming up the ticket sales should stay rather high, but on September and Octuber is all going to be about the Les Miserables 25th anniversary so maybe ticket sales will drop then.

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If anyone has the time, you can check availability of tickets easily on SEE. Click Buy Tickets and then pick a date and which show.

I had time for just one look-see.

I checked Wednesday, June 16. I was told to continue for all but one type of ticket for both the matinee and the evening performance. That means tickets are available. You'd have to spend more time to find out how many tickets and where they are.

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What about continuing this in the promotion and advertising thread? After all, positive or negative, this is a form of promotion, and there may be a few of us who would like to discuss this further. While I may not fully embrace the whole LSD phenom, it does seem to me that they struck a chord with like-minded fans who, regardless of their reasoning, are not happy with the sequel.

http://www.phantomoftheopera.com/modu ... p?topic_id=13395&forum=18

Today Love Never Dies tops the list at seetickets, with Phantom in third place.

http://www.seetickets.com/see/top40.asp

Does anyone know of any more sites with sales stats? And/or historical figures for sales of musical tickets?

I can't help with the kind of information you--and many of us---would like to find, but I found this little comment on the Dress Circle Musicals board. The poster (an "elite veteran" rather than a guest or newbie) was commenting on the Timmons story and a comment that the reporter made in it:



"I think more interesting than the 2 people who have way to much time on their hands is the fact that the show is playing 20 percent under its running costs which means that if that contunies the show will close at a loss."

Hi all,

Just checking in the other discussions because it intrigues me.

I also wanted to offer my two cents. As mentioned before, I've worked in the theatre industry for over a decade and want to add a few points.

Someone had mentioned in this thread that fans should be checking online to book tickets to see how many tickets are left for a particular show. Although this idea sounds good, it's obviously not the best course of action to see how well a show is selling on a particular night. Honestly, only the box office manager and accountants know how well the show is selling.

You need to keep in mind, for any particular day, ANY production company will have several seating sections on hold and not available to public. So when someone like you and I go online to check out availability, these 'held' seats appear to be as sold.

Held seats can include, but not limited to, blocked tickets for group sales, house seats, emergency seats, advertising seats, comp seats, and contra seats.

Group sales generally blocks off 50-300 seats per show. They do NOT need to be sold...they are just on hold in case a group calls in looking for tickets. As the performance date gets closer, the company management will release these seats in mini blocks (say 10, 20 at a time). As these seats are blocked off, they appear to be 'sold' for online and telephone sales. Only the group sales department can sell these seats until they are released to the public.

House Seats generally account for 10-30 seats per performance. These are used for Webbers personal use, creative team, investors, dignitaries, cast requests (say Ramin's parents were in town, they'd get house seats). These seats are premium seats...and As the performance date gets closer, the company management will release these seats in mini blocks (say 2, 4, 10 at a time). As mentioned above, even though they are on hold, they will appear to be sold. Until someone actually purchases the seats (house seats would be sold via the company manager and their request is sent to the box office manager), they will appear to be sold.

Emergency seats generally consist of 5, maybe 10 per performance and are on hold right up to the last few minutes of the show. They are used ONLY for the theatre house manager. In case of double bookings. Most of the time, these seats are premium seats. Of course, if there are no double bookings, the seats go unused. However, to make the house seem full, it will be up to the house managers discretion to pick people at the back of the theatre, and move them up front...as a free upgrade. (they can be used for PR purposes too).

Advertising and comp and contra seats: these generally consist of about 10-50 tickets per performance (on selected days of course) and are given to companies RUG partners with. For example, RUG may call up the Telegraph newspaper and say, "We want a full page advert for LND". The newspaper will tell them it costs "$5,000", Instead of paying $5,000 cash, RUG will give them either $5,000 worth of tickets, or a split, say, $2,500 cash and $2,500 worth of tickets. The two companies will agree on the best sort of 'payment'. RUG and other theatre companies will do this for almost ANYTHING. For example, advertising space, piano rentals, catering for events, costume fabric, fresh cut flowers, window repairs, radio ads, paper and office supplies, etc. Anything that costs money, they can easily hand out tickets and partial payment (if agreed to by the vendor). It's part of business. You'll notice sometimes this is how radio shows, or newspapers have 'draws' to win 2 free tickets to the show. They didnt pay for the tickets...they got them for free in exchange for their services. This would also include press tickets (in order to drum up sales in exchange for a review of the show)

So really...bottom line - there could be a hundred or so tickets on hold for each performance...that look sold...but really are not. Another reason why RUG is suffering a 20% loss.

I really wonder how much they are papering the house. For those not familiar with the term 'papering' this simply means, how many comps (free tickets) are they are handing out for each show. Major companies paper the house for several reasons. Even if the show is doing well, they want to house to look packed, so they'll print off as many tickets as they see fit, to give away to large corporations, investors, and family and friends just to get the word of mouth out there. Sure, it makes the theatre look sold out (it's all part of the magical illusion that the show is doing so well...and makes for good theatre)....but in actuality, maybe 60% of the theatregoers are actually paying customers.

For any non-believers, I would highly recommend you contact any friend in the theatre business, or better yet, in the ticketing business and ask these questions to confirm my response. Ask about held seats, and how long they are on hold for, and how many tickets...the numbers may fluctuate depending on the type of theatre and budget of the production company...

To toot my own horn, I've worked for and managed theatres in London's West End, in Toronto's entertainment district, as well as the US. I know the system....and I know it well...

~Jeff

Great, some "horse's mouth" input, at last Even if you're not running in the RUG races, you've been in the business, as you say.

Thank you for the information PhantomJT, I'm starved for facts in this forum. The bunfights are making me hungry too....

Feelings have been running high and at times I feel as if there has been more talk about what we think people said or what people say that someone said. And please everyone, this is just my personal general reflection not aimed at any one member or group of members on this forum. Whether for or against LSD, LND or ALW.

Joking aside... thanks for the input on how the sales side works in the theatre world. It hasn't made it easier for me to get a grip on How The Show Is Actually Doing, but has given me an insight into how complicated it is to try to work it out, unless you're the business manager at the Adelphi, counting the money at the end of the day, as it were.

The vast majority of tickets being sold on ebay.co.uk are now being offered at a 50% reduction or two tickets for the price of one. Most of these are being sold by tour operators. The price of tickets on ebay has steadily and relentlessy declined since the premiere, something which would not have happeded if the show was doing well. Today the Mail on Sunday, a publication with which Lloyd Webber has strong conections, issued a free cd containing music from LND and the original Phantom show, presumably in the interests of drumming up business for the new show.

I have to say that when I went on a friday evening a couple of months back I was stunned by the number of unfilled top price seats around us.

Love never dies, but hastily written sequel-musicals do eventually, no matter how much they're propped up.

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HAHA!!! That made me laugh

At first, I was like, 'Oh no. Another mile-long post,' but after I started to read it, I was amazed at how the theater will deceive other theater-goers, causing them to believe that it's a full house.

To give my input: I'm glad that the show isn't selling. I have no desire for it to succeed. Sure, the music and actors may be great, but the whole idea just ticks me off. Glad to know that they aren't selling

Miss Daae, you say that the show isn't selling - could you give us some more information about the sales statistics you're referring to please? I'd be happy to have more facts in this thread.

ETA: I wonder how London shows in general are doing right now. Is summer an off-season / low season for musicals and other shows?

I just bought tickets for Saturday night, mid September, Row B of the Grand Circle really easily online. I am assuming that means that ticket sales aren't going so well!

From www.bloomberg.com: "It cost six million pounds ($9 million), and has advance ticket sales of nine million pounds." http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pi ... sarchive&sid=aJdFVgl.EXfs

As to the credibility of this source...you tell me. But if this is true, then ticket sales are doing phenomenally well, which is why I'm not sure that this is correct.

I just felt that I should throw that out there.

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Um... No way tickets costs six million pounds.

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No, I think that it means that the show cost six million pounds to put together and everything. And that, combined, the advanced ticket sales amount to nine million pounds.

Anecdotal evidence is confusing. I'll read one report by someone who said that the theater was well filled if not full and then see one like this from the Whatsonstage board:

July 23, 2010


Went to see this at Wednesday's matinee.

Overall thought was a very good show - great cast, spectacular sets, projections and special effects, great score, but something left me feeling it was a bit of a bit of a patch work musical i.e. pick the best bits from other shows and add put them together as far as the staging was concerned e.g. ending almost exact copy of Miss Saigon.

Wasn't over impressed with the lead Ramon as the phantom - put off by his constant chesty breathing, snorting and dribbling on stage - lost count after seeing this 5 times!

I was originally in the balcony area but was moved before the start to the dress circle and even with several people moved downstairs the back 6 rows were completely empty - there were several seats empty in even the first 4 to 6 rows. Not a good omen for a show only 4 months old and compounded by the vast majority of patrons were well into their 60's and seemed to be on coach tours from up north. You could hear a constant rattle of Worthers Original sweet wrappers.

Things must be struggling as there was only one person working in the bar before the show an during the interval - with less than 20 drinks being served.

Overall thoroughly enjoyed the show and it did get many in the dress circle giving it a standing ovation.