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The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
Archangel
  • Joined: 21 Feb 2005 13:26
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The final Lair scene from “Phantom of the Opera:

Punting across the lake with the lady of his heart, knight-errant Raoul joins his voice with Christine’s in an optimistic duet: “Share with me one love one lifetime” as the Phantom is left holding a wisp of fabric, the bridal veil.

Oooooh symbolism!! Raoul may have got the gal, but Phantom got the symbol of Christine’s virginity. And not only the symbol, as we discover in LND....

I am deeply saddened to learn that the preux chevalier Raoul who won his lady’s favour now apparently turns up as a grumpy gambling alcoholic in LND.

Those of you who have seen the show, or listened to the music, could you help me understand who Raoul is in LND, and perhaps offer some explanation of how Galahad seemingly turned into someone more closely resembling Falstaff?

Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 18:39
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Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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Quote:

Jennie wrote:
Those of you who have seen the show, or listened to the music, could you help me understand who Raoul is in LND, and perhaps offer some explanation of how Galahad seemingly turned into someone more closely resembling Falstaff?
It's simple. Because the Phantom had to be the hero, his adversary had to be the villain. And the only thing more loathsome than a kidnapping, homicidal psychopath is an abusive drunkard.

I only wish I was remotely joking around when I say that.

Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 19:07
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Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
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  • Hah, so I was right in calling Christine Little Lotte Slutty.

    Even though I haven't seen the actual musical yet, nor will I ever, my perosnal though (well, actually, it was my mom's thought, I simply stole it from her, mwahahaha) is that Christine's infidelity brought Raoul down. When he somehow learned that Gustav was Erik's son, he began to drink as a source of escape from the grim reality that he was raising his enemies son. After the drinking, obviously, followed the constant gambling, which in turn produced huge debts, which led to more drinking (perhaps even blaming Christine for everything and aybe punching her once or twice, who knows), and the cycle went on. Christine's actions sent poor, noble Raoul on an inevitable downward spiral-she ruined him. Just goes to show that she deserved neither Erik nor Raoul (thus, I'm free of guilt in claiming them both, ;))

    Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 19:11
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    Quote:

    Eriks Persian Angel wrote:
    Hah, so I was right in calling Christine Little Lotte Slutty.


    I really don't think that's a fair judgment. Christine was in no way a slut. You have to remember that during the entire ordeal, she was torn between two types of love; Raoul being the husband type love and Erik being the father-figure type love that she had always missed. And since she was obviously inexperienced when it came to sex, she was probably incredibly confused and didn't realize that the two types of love she was experiencing were completely different. And for all we know (and everyone, please don't hate me for this, this is just for argument's sake) Erik could have raped her before the final scene (since the pregnancy couldn't have happened after MOTN, considering that months pass after the chandelier crash and Christine remains un-impregnated).

    Quote:
    Even though I haven't seen the actual musical yet, nor will I ever,

    Which musical are you talking about? LND or POTO? Because if you're talking about POTO, then I really don't think you should be making this type of an argument, seeing as how LND is the bloody sequel.

    Quote:
    my perosnal though (well, actually, it was my mom's thought, I simply stole it from her, mwahahaha) is that Christine's infidelity brought Raoul down. When he somehow learned that Gustav was Erik's son, he began to drink as a source of escape from the grim reality that he was raising his enemies son. After the drinking, obviously, followed the constant gambling, which in turn produced huge debts, which led to more drinking (perhaps even blaming Christine for everything and aybe punching her once or twice, who knows), and the cycle went on. Christine's actions sent poor, noble Raoul on an inevitable downward spiral-she ruined him. Just goes to show that she deserved neither Erik nor Raoul (thus, I'm free of guilt in claiming them both, ;))

    I'm sorry, but I find this to be a serious lack of understanding for Raoul's character. Raoul is not the type of man to run away from his problems. He is the type to confront them and deal with them head on. I believe that if he really did have such a problem with Christine, then he would have at the very least tried to talk to her about it and help raise the son as his own, not crawl away and sit at the bottom of a whiskey bottle.

    Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 20:08
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

    • Joined: 6 Mar 2009 12:57
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    Raoul doesn't know that Gustave isn't his son until the second act of LND, so he wouldn't have begun drinking/gambling as a reaction to learning the truth.

    As for Raoul's character, it really barely even exists. He's cartoon angry from the moment he arrives in America, constantly being short with Christine and Gustave as Christine weakly pleads that he settle down and Gustave wonders why his father never plays with him. There are a few moments when he shows some actual hints of being a real person (especially in "Before the Performance", the only song in which he and Christine begin to act in a way even remotely resembling their original characters) but overall he's just a charicature. His character was sacrificed as a means of pushing Christine into the Phantom's arms without letting her or the audience feel the least bit conflicted.

    Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 20:18
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    Quote:

    Eriks Persian Angel wrote:
    Hah, so I was right in calling Christine Little Lotte Slutty.

    Even though I haven't seen the actual musical yet, nor will I ever, my perosnal though (well, actually, it was my mom's thought, I simply stole it from her, mwahahaha) is that Christine's infidelity brought Raoul down. When he somehow learned that Gustav was Erik's son, he began to drink as a source of escape from the grim reality that he was raising his enemies son. After the drinking, obviously, followed the constant gambling, which in turn produced huge debts, which led to more drinking (perhaps even blaming Christine for everything and aybe punching her once or twice, who knows), and the cycle went on. Christine's actions sent poor, noble Raoul on an inevitable downward spiral-she ruined him. Just goes to show that she deserved neither Erik nor Raoul (thus, I'm free of guilt in claiming them both, ;))


    Unfortunately Raoul's drinking and overall OOC-ness cannot be attributed to his learning that Gustave is Erik's son... because supposedly he has no clue when Erik mentions it in "Devil Take the Hindmost." Could be wrong. Someone please correct me. But that just struck me as absurd that he openly admitted that he thought the idea was ludicrous. Did he (supposedly)? Or did he know all along? It would make more sense to me if he did... but there's not a hint of that in LND.

    One question that pops into my mind, though, is: Are there any solos for Raoul in LND?

    Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 20:27
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
  • Guest_
  • Before you guys accuse me of heresy, I'd like to say a few things in defence of myself. Yes, I've neither saw POTO nor LND, BUT, that's only because I'm a fairly new phan (I only became a phan back in september of last year, it's barely been 6 months). Besides, I've done LOTS and lots of research, and thus I know pretty much the entire plot line of POTO and I've read the review for LND. I admit that I made a mistake in assuming that Raoul knew that Gustav was not his son, however, as I had already mentioned, this was my mother's idea, I was simply taking it a step further.

    My prev post was supposed to be humerous, and was basically aimed at exposing all the inadequencies, plot holes, mistakes, and horrid character mutilation that can be found in LND. I know that Raoul would never hurt Christine, become a drunk, start gambling without stop, or otherwise act like an a**, but that's exactly what they turned him into in LND, and I was simply providing a possible lame explanation that ALW and his team must've came up with when writing the sequel.

    Now, I will not say another word until I see my lawyer, lol.

    Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 21:13
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    This is one of the many things that bug me about this ludicrous sequel. No attempt is made at explaining Raoul's OOC behaviour or what has gone wrong between him and Christine. We have no reason to think he has ever known about Christine's night with the Phantom and he certainly does not seem to have suspected he was not the child's father. You can't simply turn the former hero into a total jerk because it's just not convincing. It's the cheapest trick in immature fan fiction. Likewise, Meg's psyco Glenn Close a la FATAL ATTRACTION impression is equally unconvincing. This is bad writing, pure and simple.

    Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 21:42
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    Hi! This is my first post here. Just joined because very interested to find out more about the sequel.

    Have to say what I have read so far about what has happened to some of the characters like Raoul and Meg is just such a surprise (and not in a good way!). And as mentioned above, especially so if no explanation for Raoul's turnaround.

    I agree the turnaround in character would make sense if he knew about the night the child was conceived etc. Jealousy could lead him to become who he is in the sequel. So very strange to me no reason given.

    But then again if he is this jealous you would think the final scene would be about Christine stepping in between a Phantom and Raoul standoff. My understanding is that instead it is Meg in a standoff at the end, who kidnapped the child due to her jealously, and Raoul is just a mere bystander at the end(is that so?).

    And Meg was such the innocent in POTO - another strange turnaround!

    Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 22:08
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
  • Guest_
  • Welcome to the forum Wintergal! Seriously, I have a feeling that they took the plot for LND off fanfiction.net or something, cause all the characters are so OOC (yes, all the characters, inclusing, but not limited to: The Phantom, Christine, Raoul, and Meg).

    Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 23:00
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    Quote:

    Eriks Persian Angel wrote:
    Before you guys accuse me of heresy, I'd like to say a few things in defence of myself. Yes, I've neither saw POTO nor LND, BUT, that's only because I'm a fairly new phan (I only became a phan back in september of last year, it's barely been 6 months). Besides, I've done LOTS and lots of research, and thus I know pretty much the entire plot line of POTO and I've read the review for LND. I admit that I made a mistake in assuming that Raoul knew that Gustav was not his son, however, as I had already mentioned, this was my mother's idea, I was simply taking it a step further.

    My prev post was supposed to be humerous, and was basically aimed at exposing all the inadequencies, plot holes, mistakes, and horrid character mutilation that can be found in LND. I know that Raoul would never hurt Christine, become a drunk, start gambling without stop, or otherwise act like an a**, but that's exactly what they turned him into in LND, and I was simply providing a possible lame explanation that ALW and his team must've came up with when writing the sequel.

    Now, I will not say another word until I see my lawyer, lol.


    Your post made perfectly good sense, because just a month or so ago, I posted the same argument. I applaude you for your increasing knowledge of Phantom... keep it up!! I hope it never gets old for you. I feel like a pretty new phan, and I've loved it for a little over four years now. Phew! Must get back on topic....

    Another thing that bugged me while listening to "Devil Take the Hindmost" was Raoul's complete lack of love or concern for the fate of his family (Christine and Gustave). When the Phantom explains that if Christine sings Raoul should leave alone, he simply retorts "Fine!"... and when Gustave goes missing, it sounds like he's threatening to hurt the boy for getting lost. Sweet fancy Moses. And when the Phantom appears as the bartender, again in "Devil Take the Hindmost", Raoul sounds like a complete coward.

    What in sweet Mozart's name happened there.

    Posted on: 1 Mar 2010 23:56
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    As to what happened to Raoul- I don't know. Of course there are just too many Erik siders out there that during the making of LND ALW had to make Raoul somehow dispicable so that we never think "It's wrong for Erik to go after Christine again! What happened to Raoul?" But it's so completely out of character for Raoul to gamble and drink like he does that it makes me sick. I guess we are supposed to forget that Erik's a manipulating murderer*, but hey! Raoul's a gambling alcoholic, so Christine should go with Erik! Since when would Raoul gamble with Christine's fate again ("Devil Take the Hindmost")? At least in POTO he tells her his plan! ALW couldn't accept that Raoul's a viscount and it's not in his bringing up or nature to be what they make him in LND. They had to insert some sort of flaw that makes Erik a good possibility, I suppose. But I'm in denial. And I will now proceed to pretend that LND hasn't destroyed POTO.

    *Honestly, I love Erik. But I love Raoul more and Erik is just not suitable for Christine.

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 0:05
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    They based the sequel off of "The Phantom of Manhattan", which is a god-awful published fanfiction by Forsythe.

    I have no money to see LND, but I really want to. I think the music will make up for the plot. Hopefully.

    Honestly, I never saw Raoul as a hero. He seemed like a tool to me. He seemed eagar for esteem and glory and instead of running off with Christine like he should have, he forced her into performing so he could capture Erik. It was also to prevent Erik from following them forever, but what he did was selfish and a little cold. Neither relationship was amazing, but a relationship with Raoul is more feasable- everyone would agree to that.

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 0:18
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
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  • Wow, now that I'm rereading my prev. post, I just realized how many mistakes I've made (both spelling and grammatical). Sorry about that, it's just that I was in a hurry when writing it.

    Oh, and thank you DyingOfLove for your commendation.

    Right, there's only one thing that still bothers me: if we all hate the sequel so much, how come there're so many active threads dedicated to discussing each and every aspect of it? *scratches head in confusion* I find that quiet odd. If you think about it, no matter how retarted LND is, ALW still succeeded in getting our attention...yet again :)

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 0:28
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
    ballet rat
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    Honestly, I'm hoping that Raoul's "drunkeness" is just a plot tool for the Phantom to confrontRraoul and basically tell him that he needs to shape up, because he got the girl, and right now he doesn't deserve her because of the way He's acting...


    Lame, I know, but I think it would be a sweet moment...

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 0:55
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    And of course the Phantom is the last person who should be giving advice on relationships and how to treat the girl you love! LOL

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 8:20
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
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  • Quote:

    Unstolen wrote:
    Honestly, I'm hoping that Raoul's "drunkeness" is just a plot tool for the Phantom to confrontRraoul and basically tell him that he needs to shape up, because he got the girl, and right now he doesn't deserve her because of the way He's acting...


    AWWWWWW!!!! *dies of cuteness overload*

    Mr. Y: Young man, you must clean up your act. I shall give you one. last. chance.

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 8:44
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    Maybe Raoul is actually impotent on his wedding night, due to perfomance anxiety,after the trauma of nearly getting killed. Can't bring himself to try again for fear of failure. Then suddenly it's clear that Christine is pregnant. Might explain hin spiralling down into alcholism. But if that is the case there should be some explanation, maybe in that confrontation in the bar between him and the phantom.

    I don't think the writers of the show have even bothered to think about it. Raoul is just a charicture in this show, a plot device rather than a rounded character.

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 15:35
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    Quote:

    Eriks Persian Angel wrote:


    Right, there's only one thing that still bothers me: if we all hate the sequel so much, how come there're so many active threads dedicated to discussing each and every aspect of it? *scratches head in confusion* I find that quiet odd. If you think about it, no matter how retarted LND is, ALW still succeeded in getting our attention...yet again :)



    Whether a fan likes the idea of the sequel of hates it, the sequel is an important event in phandom, which had existed but really took off with the opening of ALW's show back in 1986.

    People who plan to see it want some idea of what it is like, hoping, probably, to hear something good. They are curious about this landmark show.

    People who do not plan to see it, want some idea of what it is like, hoping, probably, to hear something bad (so it will FAIL). They are curious about this landmark show.

    People who don't have a strong opinion about the sequel one way or the other are still curious about it.

    Everyone who is interested in ALW's POTO or his musicals in general are curious about it. It exists; it's here. I want to know about it.

    For the record, I never hated Raoul and don't like what they've done with the character in LND.


    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 16:04
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
    Archangel
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    Yes, of course Raoul in LND isn't the result of "natural" character development, he has to be turned into a villain to make it legitimate for Christine to consider leaving him.

    But it wasn't really necessary, surely. The story could have been improved if the characters were more complex..

    Fiyero said: "His character was sacrificed as a means of pushing Christine into the Phantom's arms without letting her or the audience feel the least bit conflicted."
    I agree with that. It seems as if those who set up LND believe that people can see only black and white...

    Eriks Persian Angel said: "Christine's infidelity brought Raoul down. When he somehow learned that Gustav was Erik's son, he began to drink as a source of escape from the grim reality that he was raising his enemies son."

    People have already pointed out that in the show Raoul doesn't actually know until the Phantom rubs his nose in it. But Christine and Raoul's marriage didn't work out well anyway, and part of the problem could well have been that Christine didn't go into it wholeheartedly after all. After that night of passion... There are many reasons why couples grow apart.

    So you haven't seen the stage show POTO yet, Eriks Persian Angel?? Wow, you have really got something to long for and to look forward to... I've seen it several times now, but it's pure magic each time.

    A side comment about LND Raoul's drinking problem: in the POTO stage show, he does grab a bottle of champagne and bring it with him to Christine's dressingroom, whereas in the 2004 movie he steals a bouquet of flowers from one of the managers. Wonder why they changed that for the film.

    Ravenaria said: "Honestly, I never saw Raoul as a hero. He seemed like a tool to me. He seemed eagar for esteem and glory and instead of running off with Christine like he should have, he forced her into performing so he could capture Erik. It was also to prevent Erik from following them forever, but what he did was selfish and a little cold. "
    Are you referring to the stage show or to the 2004 movie here? Because Raoul comes off badly in the movie, compared to the stage show. He does less pushing and more protecting in the stage show, as I remember it. There's a huge difference in different stage Raouls, too. Some I've seen are fluffy-haired nonentities, while for example Danish Tomas Ambt Kofoed was absolutely splendid. Both he and the Danish Phantoms were spectacular, and Christine was truly torn between them.

    Wintergal: "And of course the Phantom is the last person who should be giving advice on relationships and how to treat the girl you love! LOL"

    *Facepalm*

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 18:16
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    Quote:

    Jennie wrote:
    A side comment about LND Raoul's drinking problem: in the POTO stage show, he does grab a bottle of champagne and bring it with him to Christine's dressingroom, whereas in the 2004 movie he steals a bouquet of flowers from one of the managers. Wonder why they changed that for the film.

    To be fair, it is the managers who brings the bottle of champagne, Raoul just snaps it out of their hands to (I presume) have something to give to Christine.

    I agree with others that making Raoul a dunk whiney is mostly a bad excuse to allow Christine to end up with the Phantom. There's nothing in his character in the original show to points toward him ending up like that. Not to me, anyway.

    And once again I must exclaim that "Phantom of Manhattan" is superior to LND, plot wise. Keep in mind, I HATED that book when it came, because I found the storyline poor and parodic, and it also has lots of logical flaws. But as for the Raoul role, we're told in the beginning that he was impotent due to being shot in his lower body. Still, the Chagny couple had a son. Made it a lot more plausible that the son was the Phantom's. Also, Raoul followed Christine to the US, but he was actually sympathetic, which made the whole plot more convincing, and Christine's struggle more believable (as in the original).

    Still no fan of "Phantom of Manhattan", but I much prefer it to the dribble that is the storyline of LND.

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 21:08
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
    Archangel
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    Did you ever think you'd see the day that you would be saying this, operafantomet?

    I agree that in PoM, Raoul was a sympathetic character. I've never been a big Raoul fan, but when the National Touring Company came to my area back in '07, Michael Gillis was playing Raoul. Gillis's performance made me like Raoul. A lot! But even with Raoul's that struck me as so-so, I never saw anything in his character that would suggest he was anything but what he was presented as being -- Christine's childhood sweetheart and her knight in shining armor.

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 21:58
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?
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  • You know the thing that irks me most about this? Raoul has change so that Christine can be, yes, the same dull and boring one-sided character looking for guidance that she's always been. And in the process, naturally she's irresistible to the Phantom. I really hate that. She doesn't have to learn any life lessons, she doesn't have to learn from being a wife of a troubled man, she doesn't have to learn from being a mother to a potential genius. She's just there. Singing. Yawn.

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 22:22

    Edited by winnie1955 on 2 Mar 2010 22:26:40
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    Jennie: I meant both. I've seen both, and to me it seems that no matter how it is acted, Raoul is never a completely rounded character. We have no private moments with him- we never see how he is functioning or what he is like or what really motivates him as a character.

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 23:02
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    Re: The lost hero – what happened to Raoul?

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    Quote:

    Jennie wrote:
    A side comment about LND Raoul's drinking problem: in the POTO stage show, he does grab a bottle of champagne and bring it with him to Christine's dressingroom, whereas in the 2004 movie he steals a bouquet of flowers from one of the managers. Wonder why they changed that for the film.


    Because there can be only one date raping sexually persuasive leading male! XD

    Posted on: 2 Mar 2010 23:18
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