Another member was surprised at some of the information I've been finding and quoting. See below.

I thought I'd share my sources as I find them, and ask that anyone else with interesting information or useful tips and hints do the same.

All in the interest of furthering our knowledge of all things Phantom.

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There's no magic to it, falluke-elskeren, but a strong contributing factor has been the fact that I know French. So I've been searching in French as well as in English when I've been googling.

Soooo.... using google, try typing in the following words.

lac souterrain garnier.

Et voilà:

http://www.histoire-en-ligne.com/spip.php?article115&artsuite=3
A site explaining how Garnier solved the problem of waterlogged soil by building a large water reservoir, with some information abt the skeleton left by the Commune

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ra_Garnier
Exhaustive wiki article in French abt the Opera Garnier. Including this section, on the reservoir:

La cuve ou réservoir [modifier]

Cet élément, dont la réalisation n'est pas prévue lors de la conception première de l'Opéra, résulte de la découverte d'un sol gorgé d'eau en cours de chantier. Si la nature du terrain remet en cause la conception des fondations d'une portion de l'édifice, en augmente le coût et en retarde quelque peu la mise en œuvre, la réalisation d'un cuvelage destiné à contenir les infiltrations souterraines constitue un réel avantage pour le Palais Garnier.
En effet, l'importante quantité contenue dans le réservoir et son emplacement stratégique donnent aux pompiers la possibilité de circonscrire plus rapidement et plus efficacement un départ d'incendie. Il faut aussi préciser que cette construction facilite la répartition des descentes de charges de la plus haute et imposante partie du palais.

Situé sous la cage de scène, l'accès est rendu possible par un petit escalier et la surveillance de l'état des structures de la cuve et de ses voûtes y est régulièrement effectuée en barque. La présence de carpes, nourries par les techniciens responsables de l'endroit et pour anecdotique qu'elle soit, donne une indication intéressante sur la qualité de cette eau.

Cet ouvrage est à l'origine de la fameuse légende relative à l'existence d'un lac que certains Parisiens prennent encore pour argent comptant.

Am short of time at the moment, I'll be back later with more info, and a translation of the French wiki article if you want.

Jennie-I am going to Paris in June. Tell more! I had understood no one could see the underground lake. What do you recommend seeing. We won't be far from the opera house, and our guide says we can go see it if we wish. I haven't a clue how to go about doing this though.

I took French many years ago. Some of what was written I could understand, but to say my French is rusty would be a compliment.

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I didn't see any information about visiting the underground lake when I visited around New Year? Then again, I don't speak a word French apart from oui, non, bonjour and some words that have slipped into Dutch language. Since the French refuse to speak a word English and are not very fond of the Dutchies (lol) I decided to just keep my mouth shut :P

Any information (in English) is welcome! I'd love to see the lake but I don't want to go with a tour, I have a tendency to get lost because they move so fast in a large group and you can't go on your own. This doesn't make sense does it??

Hi Winnie, lucky you, going to Paris and having time for sightseeing. I occasionally go there, but for work and just fly in for the day.

Ceridwen is our on-site expert on the Opera Garnier, since she's been there... you've seen her photos, haven't you?? Very nice.

This is the Opera Garnier official visits site in English that may be useful. There is no information about tours of the cellars/"lake", however.

After a discussion in another thread I mailed and asked whether it was possible to see the lake/reservoir etc, but I haven't had a reply yet. Will post it here if I do get one. Then again, I wrote in English, so they may not answer me at all. I'll give it a few days and then send a new mail in French.

I did find a tour that seemed to include the cellars/lake, but it's in French. Ariane, special guided tours The way the blurb is formulated, it seemed to me that the underground may have been included in the tour they had on 18th March. Then again, they might just have talked about the cellars and lake without visiting.

As for general recommendations of what to see in Paris, there's an old thread I posted in the Chorus, so I'll refer you to that, for now. Travelling post! thread abt what to see in Paris etc.

Also, the wikipedia is full of useful information.

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Eeep, found this article about a "man-hunt" in the catacombs during the troubles in 1871. With illustration. Very gruesome. Hunting down the last insurgents in the catacombs under Paris

Interesting... I know when I went to the opera house years ago, the cellars and the 'lake' were very off limits. I've certainly heard of people getting special permission to go down there, but I doubt that it's now open to the general public.... Especially if they know your doing it for phan reasons, as frankly phans have caused damage to the building in the past. Also, and I can't substantiate this with any links or anything, but I have heard that they have been particularly cautious about letting people down there after 911.

So I don't know guys... Unless I'm very much mistaken, I think you either have to on some special tour, (Maybe..) or just have enough clout to get special permission. Otherwise I think your probably out of luck.

Oldphan

Thanks, Jennie. I figured just being able to stand in it would be enough. I never even thought of seeing any of the boxes, much less the lake. It's fun to think about though. Actually, it will probably be just my husband and I checking it out. I just wondered what we could see on our own.

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Without being negative towards tours... but I had a great laugh watching this for a while:




Its a tour going inside one of the boxes. I never waited to watch how they all went in and out. The larger group in the background is waiting to go in, those people in the front have just come out through the other door. It took ages... You don't have to follow the tour to go inside the boxes (two of them are open for everyone), but you do visit the auditorium which is not open for 'normal' visitors. There's a bit more but I can't remember, nothing about visiting underground lakes though :P

Anyone wanting to do some in-depth research can find all Gaston Leroux's works (manuscripts, correspondence, articles, report cards, pictures, scenarii...) at the National Library of France (BNF)

(BNF - 58 rue de Richelieu 75084 Paris Cedex 02 ; Tél : +33 (0)1.53.79.8250)

The above information is from this site:The unique Gaston Leroux website of the Entitled Beneficiary of Gaston LEROUX

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Hey Winnie, why go to the Garnier as a daytripper? Why not buy a ticket to a performance, and go as a member of a real theatre audience?

They're putting on La Traviata in June, for example.

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Ceridwen... that photo made me smile. Reminds me of when I visited Pisa and saw the leaning tower. It was there, all right, and it did lean, but all around the square was the tinsel and glitter of souvenir stands.

I guess I’ve been reading too much about SQL, precoordinate and postcoordinate keywords, algoritmisk and heuristisk search methods. I’m beginning to think that if you found good information the search had to be really complicated.

This is a really interesting topic. There is so much we can discuss. Like the invisible web, or the search process or evaluating quality on the Net.

I’m a terrible at explaining, my knowledge about the search process comes from «Referansearbeid» by Odd Heide Hald. According to him there are three main search methods:

1. Mechanical searching, or shelf searching.
Basically you go to the shelf of the library or any other bookshelf containing books about the subject of interest and look for useful books.

I think the online equivalent of this is googling. It’s good for searching for answers to specific questions. It’s quick and effective, but not ideal when you’re aiming for complete (or as complete as possible) coverage of a subject. Because neither Google nor a single library rarely contains all information available on a subject.

2. Further reading recommendations, or the snowball method.
A condition for using this method is that you already have a document relevant to the subject and that it recommends further reading. When you’re that far you get a hold of the recommended books, and some of those books recommend other books again, etc.

The pro of this method is that (provided the document you started with is good) you‘ll have a certain quality assurance and you will most likely be recommended the most important works about a subject. The con is that the book you started with can only recommend books that have been published before it, meaning you will miss out on newer books. The person who write the recommendations may also only refer you to a certain type of books (like those who share the point of view of the author or books in (a) language(s) the author understands).

The closes online equivalent I can think of is an open directory, like Phantom Web. They have (at least a certain) quality assurance, but they often aren’t updated.

3. Systematic information & literature searching

The first step is to make a search profile, meaning you map out your information need. Then map out the information sources you’re going to use (and in what order). You also have to translate the search profile into the type of language used in the sources/retriever/search engine. By that I don’t necessarily mean from English to Norwegian or something like that. Here you have to have knowledge about who’s creating the metadata (information about information, like the tags in youtube), if it’s professional cataloguer they have standards they have to follow, but if it it’s selfmeta (I don‘t know if this is an actual expression or something I made up, but it refers to metadata created by the creator) you can’t be creative enough. Dublin Core Metadata is trying to make a standard for cataloging web pages. Personally I find their page hard to get a grip on, and my professor made it a lot more understandable, but that page is in Norwegian. The last part is of course to preform the search. The bad thing about this method is that it requires a lot of time and effort, and if you don’t already have it you have to spend time learning what information sources are available and what they are like. But it’s the best method if you want the most complete coverage of a subject.

To map out your needs you’ll need a search profile, which should contain (I've abridged this part since some of it was only relevant if you‘re interview the person with the information need):

1. The subject
A specification of the subject (This is about making the search as specific as possible. I've been told that if someone are looking for a book about “English Cocker Spaniels” they are likely to search for ”dogs” instead. Ideally you start as specific as possible, and if that doesn’t pan out you go wider.)
A restriction of the subject (Is about what you don‘t what the search to contain. To take a phantom example this could mean you interested in every version of phantom, except ALW or Leroux or Kay)
A time restriction of the subject (Is about what time period you want the search to be restricted to. For example from 1830 to 1910)
A geographic restriction of the subject (only books about France)

2. User level
Is there a certain level a works has to be at (beginner, expert, etc.)?

Selection Criteria

1. Geographic
Does the book have to be published a specific place?

2. Language
What or which language(s) can the work be in?

3. Time
Are you interested in the newest literature or is historical perspective necessary?

4. Document type
Encyclopedia, fiction, non-fiction, magazines, statistics, etc.?

Then (as mentioned earlier) you have to translate your information need into something your search engine/retriever can understand. This is where metadata, precoordinate and postcoordinate keywords, Dewey, UDC, indexes and all that comes in. But I’ll skip that for now, so you’ll have to bring it up if you want to discuss it.

Then you have to chose what information sources you’re going to use, and in what order you’re going to use them. Which again is a huge subject in itself, so again if there is anything you want to discuss please bring it up.

If some of this is worded awkwardly I apologise. I don’t know the English equivalent of many of the words Hald uses.

Hope this was relevant.

That was very relevant, falluke-elskeren, and exhaustive. You must be a professional researcher. I'm a happy amateur, but fairly critical and sceptical to the things I find.

I looked at the articles you linked to... there's a whole world out there that we don't know anything about. The thought of the invisible net makes my head spin. Research today is facilitated in some ways by the vast amount of information available on the internet, but it has its pitfalls.

Awesome topic! I hope those tours some one posted a link to really do include the lake, that'd be really cool! Not that I have a hope in hell of going to Paris any time in the near future, but I can wish!

Faluke. Thanks! That was actually very helpful. LOL it'll help me a lot with my essay writing. Research is something that I've always found really difficult, especially the part about translating your search into terms that your retreival system can understand. That's where I always fall flat. I think, though, that part of the reason for that is that I haven't done the prior steps of thinking through what information I need thoroughly enough. So thanks! You helped me clarify that process a lot! I'm going to try it that way on my next research essay and see if it turns out any better.

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Thanks for the complement, but I'm just a first year librarian student, so I have at least 2 years more of schooling to do before I can call myself a professional.

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Researching and putting together a bibliography are my favorite parts of essay writing. It’s the actually writing something that’s hard for me. Another thing you should do when you research is read the help section. It will help you understand how you should format your search.

Something I’ve been wanting to discuss is Leroux biographies. I don’t really trust the English version because they don’t reference their sources. This story (from «Universell bibliografisk kontroll mål, midler, teknologi.» by Knut Hegna) illustrates why it’s very important to reference your sources. I’ve translated the original Norwegian text.

«I found an example of how information can be distorted in Alberto Manguel’s award winning book «A history of reading». The book tells of a Persian Grand Vizier in the 900 hundreds, Abdul Kassem Ismail, who always brought his library with him when he traveled. 117 000 volumes divided between 400 camels, and the camels walked in alphabetical order. Some who read the story in Manguel have added that each camel driver acted as the librarian to their camel. A beautiful story, which shows how important libraries was to a high ranking person at that time […].
Manguel gives his sources, without page numbers, as Edward Browne’s «A literary history of Persia» from 1902. Browne's work is in 4 volumes with an index to each volume. You can’t find the Grand Vizier’s name in the index, but under the 900 hundreds history you’ll find a story with 400 camels. The story goes quite differently here: The learned man Sahib Ismail b. Abbad was invited to become a Grand Vizier, but excused himself by saying that just to bring his library with him would take 400 camels. Browne gives his sources as Ibn Khallikans «Biographical dictionary», a Persian, biographical work over well-known Muslims, published in English in 1824-70 and republished in 1961. Here the story matches Browne’s account, but with slightly different wording.»

The only biographies I know of are all in languages I don’t understand:
*Abenteuer und Geheimnis : Untersuchungen zu Strukturen und Mythen des Populärromans bei Gaston Leroux by Hans T. Siepe
*«Gaston Leroux ou le vrai Rouletabille : Biographie de Jean-Claude Lamy suivie de six histoires épouvantables» (From what I understand it has a biography of Leroux and six short stories by Leroux. The same stories that Peter Haining as collected the English translations of.)
*«Gaston Leroux : Parcours d’une æuvre» by Alfu
*There is also a volume about Leroux in the «Europe : revue littéraire mensuelle» series volume 626-627
*Plus a lengthy article about him in «Fantastique» no. 23 and 24 (1970) by Jean Rollin
*«Normandie de Gaston Leroux» by Patrick Marcadet

Another book I’ve been curious about is «Le travail de "l'obscure clarté" dans Le Fantôme de l'Opéra de Gaston Leroux» by Isabelle Husson-Casta.

So it there anyone who speaks these languages that have any comment about them?

That camel library story was illuminating, and a sobering illustration of how tempting it can be to write anecdotes rather than stick to the facts.

I'm fairly fluent in French, falluke-elskeren, but don't have any of those books. If there's any particular one you're interested in, that isn't too expensive, and if you have the patience to wait, then I could buy it, read and review it for you. Or if the text is available on-line, just link to it.

I speak French, but I don't know that much. You could copy the text and paste it onto babelfish translator. It works very well, as it translates entire phrases and such. I would try that first. Here's the link http://babelfish.altavista.com/
OG

Some posts in the "Erik Phact of Phiction" and "Time capsule info" threads have given me cause for concern. Members are posting information without sources, which makes it impossible to judge how reliable or correct the information is.

One example is the discussion about the time capsule... some of the "rumour" about that comes from the book by Riley. Fair enough, that's a written source. Then someone remembers reading about it somewhere else on the internet, but cannot remember where or find the site again.

I've done some searches myself, in different languages, and the only source I can find is on Ladyghost's site, where she refers to an article written by Renata de Waele, in something called Journal Illustre of Cafe de la Paix, Paris, in October/November 1993. This is the link to that page: Phantom legend page at Ladyghost's site. Ladyghost does not want her material copied without her permission, so I'm not reposting it here, go read it at her site instead.

The summary of de Waele's article makes it sound like a retelling of the Kay story, with the addition of some information about the time capsule and a photographer called Alfred Clark.

Several people seem to accept this article at face value, that it is all "fact", but I have some doubts. One reason is the type of "newspaper" that the article appeared in, isn't an ordinary newspaper. I haven't been able to find the particular issue where de Waele's account was published, but here is another issue from 1994:

Article abt Sherlock Holmes in Paris, from the Journal Illustré du Café de Paris.

It's a copy of an article about how Sherlock Holmes and friends arrive at Grand Hotel in Paris in the middle of May 1994, and how a dramatic series of events take place. In short, it's the account of a role-playing activity, and the Journal Illustré is apparently some kind of literary magazine.

A mountain can be made out of a molehill, and something that *may* have started out as a kind of literary article mixing fact and fiction, can be interpreted as "facts".

I am not saying that this is the case with the time-capsule, as this is mentioned in other written sources, but the whole story about Erik from Rouen referred to by Renata de Waele, may well be this kind of literary adventure.

Falluke-elskeren, do you have any suggestions about how we can find more facts in this matter?

What you need is a “periodikafortegnelse” and a “tidsskriftindeks”. “Periodika” refers to publications like newspapers, magazines and the likes. A “fortegnelse” means a list. A “periodikafortegnelse” has information about the periodicals themselves. There you’ll find information about Journal Illustre of Cafe de la Paix. The ”tidsskriftindeks” (”tidskrift” basically mean the same as ”periodika”) is of course an index of articles. It will help you find information about the article itself. Problem is that I know where to find these things for Norway, Sweden and Denmark, but I have no idea where to get these things for France. The only direction I can point you is to www.bnf.fr the web page of the French national library. If it’s like the Norwegian national library they should have a link to both these thing. But if they don’t I know that there is a library over at Musicalfans.net who speaks French. Her/his name is Kathryn. Here’s her/his profile
She might be able to help if you PM or send her an e-mail. (I could PM you her/his e-mail address if you‘re not able to get a hold of her/him through PM). If you would feel awkward doing it I can do it, but I have a three days home exam I really should be working on right now so it’ll have to wait if I do it. I could also swing be the Norwegian national library after my exam and ask if they know of anything like that after my exam.

Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense. I don't have time to reread.

Thanks, falluke-elskeren.

There's no rush for this. I'm overloaded at work myself for the next three weeks anyway. My holiday starts mid-June, will hopefully have more time then for reading, translating, etc.

Concentrate on your exam & good luck.

Very good points, Operaghost. If you wonder about something, just ask.

Part of the problem in some of the discussions on this site is that people like "Mystery". So rather than trying to research facts, some people spend time speculating.

Must say though, that I haven't had a reply to the mail I sent to the Garnier, but I'm not surprised. I wrote in English, will try French next time.

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Yes indeed... why should they have to show people the cellars? The Phantom? Who??? It seems to me at times as if the English are more interested in the Phantom of the Opera, than the French!